By now it shouldn't be a surprise that I follow some discussions online regarding Women's Space and Trans* inclusion. Mostly at this point as an observer, since in many of those spaces my voice isn't particularly welcome and well.. I know when to shut up.
One thing that keeps comming up is F2M inclusion in women's and specifically Lesbian spaces/events. My first reaction is a rather plain.. "What The...??!!" I mean these are guys, dudes, teh menz, boys, fellas. Why would they be invited to participate or even feel welcome to be involved in "Women's Spaces"?
I'll start off stating that my interactions with Trans*men is mostly from within the gay male community. Gay guys who were born female-bodied. These guys are not involved with, nor particularly want to participate in, women's space. They also never had a Lesbian identity. The few guys I know who transitioned from lesbian-identified women to men also left the Lesbian community for the greater GLBT.
I was surprised to hear and read about men assuming a place within women's space. When I heard their reasonings as "I don't feel 'totally male'" it suddenly makes some messages from Feminists click in my head. It Trans* guys don't feel "totally male" then Trans* women must not feel "totally female". Thus, Trans*women aren't "real" women - a boy in a dress.
So I sit on these feelings. I read from Trans Men and I try to process. It is simply too convenient to shovel all the anti-trans sentiment among some Feminist communities onto the guys. "If those pesky boys would just move out, there would be space for me."
If someone who identifies as Lesbian, has a partner, feels the need to transition, keeps the relationship with the female partner - that really complicates stuff. Particularly if the partner strongly self-identifies as Lesbian. Her identity surely should not be compromised by her partner's need to transition. So, in a way the TransMan isn't "totally male" since a "totally male" person in a relationship is never in a Lesbian relationship.
There is also the notion of community and laving a place of comfort and safety. By virtue of need, Feminists and particularly Lesbians have built a community. Started businesses, support groups, publishing houses, networks. This is hard to leave. Despite the recommendations of places like The Clarke Institute and other Gender Gatekeepers, leaving friends and relationships simply because one transitions can't be healthy. It should be difficult for someone who "came out" to a supporting community and developed an identity to up and leave.
I'd like there to be an answer. But so far, I really see all sorts of angles. Ultimately, I think Trans*Men should self-select out of Lesbian and Women's spaces, just as Trans*Women should be able to self-select in. Then again, I could just be having a PostModern Dream.
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Do you have an LJ account? I recently posted a friend-locked bit about trans men visibility vs. trans women, and it became a long discussion about this exact topic. I'm lisaquestions on lj.
Plus, this.
And yes, some trans men do actively participate in the marginalization of trans women in women-only and queer spaces, or they make it easier for queer and lesbian women to do so by simply remaining in the community.
For some lesbian women, it's like they view female sexuality/gender as running from high femme to trans men, which leaves no room for trans women. Plus, lots of femmes are basically appropriating trans women's experiences to describe the process of becoming femme.
Lisa, I do have an LJ, but for the life of me I can't remember what it is. I guess I'll just make a new one since that old one was made to keep up with some friends from a former job.
I guess I can see how remaining in the community some transmen give the impression of being "invaders" that gets tacked onto transwomen. But, it seems to go even deeper than that. Since the defenders "WBW space" are drawing the line a "Current, Past, and Future Males" - a rather "cake and eat it" attitude I'm finding.
I confess I have been lurking on the MWMF board and some of the comments happening there are pretty mind-boggling.
This is a very interesting issue. It seems to come down to something that's always bothered me - the subject of labels, and how they often aren't a good fit. Anytime you draw a line to separate, different people will likely see the line in slightly different places - from their perspective.
It's too bad we can't just suspend the labelling and give people a chance to define themselves by their actions and contributions before we decide whether they belong inside or outside any given line.
..so I'm a dreamer. You have to imagine something before you can work to realize it.
Given the complex nature of humans, all labels fail when applied to individuals. I am more and les than "trans" for example, just like I'm more and less than "geek". When it comes to any dealings socially there need to be more "guidelines" than "rules".
People don't fit a label fully or comfortably. Why should rules made by people for people be dogmatically strict?
If you make a new account, I'm lisaquestions
And I agree with you on all that, especially the convenience of "current, past, and future," but there's also queer spaces that are intended for those born female and exclude those who are born male.
I also came across something interesting, somewhere.
I need to dig it up, but it was a blog where a butch talked about how trans masculine identities belong to those born female, and also had a post talking about femme as a trans feminine identity.
Which reinforces the whole idea that trans women have no place - we can't be trans masculine (and some are), and women who were born female can just claim our experiences to talk about becoming Femme.
Oh, and:
It's too bad we can't just suspend the labelling and give people a chance to define themselves by their actions and contributions before we decide whether they belong inside or outside any given line.
Labeling is a defining action, I think. Unless you mean imposing labels on people against their will?
I'm becoming more and more split on this matter. On one hand, I'm like... thanks for not confirming my self-identification, and on the other, have at it and keep your own space, and we'll create our own. The latter of which is where I'm falling more and more. There's nothing keeping us from creating women spaces that are trans women-inclusive. Then again, I'm also the sort that if a certain organized religion doesn't want me, then I'll erect my own as well.
But I think the biggest bit you're trying to address here is the whole: why are the boys still attending? After all, that seems to undermine their own perceived gender as well. All I have for that is as long as the invitation is open, that decision remains personal and probably all wrapped up in friendships and all other manner of intimate details as you cited.
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